Return of the QUATERMAN

published Feb 28, 2015 | | |
Card draw simulator
Odds: 0% – 0% – 0% – 0% more
Derived from
None. Self-made deck here.
Inspiration for
(FFoC Set) 3,6,7 The QUATERMEN Strike Back 1 2 2

LordManHammer 434

This deck won the 4th Danish tournament on feb. 28, 2015 and went 4-0.

So, this was an idea I had when we first saw QUATERMAN - finally being able to combine the shootout actions of value 3 with Mad Science seemed like a match made in heaven with QUATERMAN.

First of all, why?

Well, the why is twofold. First of all, I like gadgets and I played Collegium some in the classic Doomtown. Secondly I saw some potential in having a dude that was immune or partially immune to most of the shootout actions that is decisive for this game - while at the same time being able to dash the same shootout actions out to your opponent seemed hilarious. Lastly, I have heard a lot of people thinking that gadgets were inferior to actions or spells and I wanted to try it out.

How?

Well first I took QUATERMAN and filled in all the 3s. Telepathy helmet comes to mind as a good card and Sun in Yer Eyes instead of The Stakes Just Rose (as The Man wont move for no stakes rising). The diamonds were easy (even a modern man of robotic persuasion can use a new hat from Yan Li's).

Then I made a mistake. The first version of this had an almost 3X16 build in 3, 6 and 7. That didnt work. My Telepathy Helmet never worked. I lost lowball and my scientists got hammered by shootoutactions before thay could use theirs (nothing like getting booted before you can boot your opponent home is there?).

So I rebuild it to what it is here. Some considerations and points of discussion:

  1. I start Harold Aimslee and I cannot see an MCC QUATERMAN deck working without him. The reason is that he almost eliminates the need to draw 10 cards on a regular basis - which this deck needs. It is always better to have QUATERMAN and a Holy Wheel Gun on your hand, but the next best thing is to draw QUATERMAN in your lowball and then just fish him up for the next turn. It creates tempo in a deck that otherwise would rely on luck of the draw for it to work.

  2. Although this deck has a quite good tempo of getting Mr. Q on the table followed by an infinite number of gadgets - it seemed pretty slow. Many times my opponents simply denied confronting me or playing control points and there is only so few possibilities to call them out (Kidnappin' and Ambush) so some of the games started fast and furious and then slowly grinded towards the end untill I drew enough control points or my jobs.

  3. Besides Harold and the obvious combo between QUATERMAN and Holy Wheel Gun and Telepathy Helmet, this decks surprise MVP went to Force Field. Often the in the end game my opponent would be able to build up a stud too big for my to reduce to nothing or play Hiding in the Shadows on her. Solution, QUATERMAN with a Forcefield! Send him in and shoot. Remember to stay legal and if you loose, then press the pay-to-win button. Or pay-to-draw. Oh, and then remember to fish Q or the Forcefield out of the pile again.

Tournament report:

Going into the tournament I thought that I had some good ideas with the deck, but I was very unsure on how it would perform. I started by facing a Sloane Deck - and I kind of figured that something would be fishy as he started Mario and with 0 GR. My worries were confirmed as he drew a flush in his lowball - Super Mario! With my 5 influence I would have 2 turns before he could win (if he didnt take over my deeds) so I started out cautious, produced an out of town deed and a quaterman and then he began robbing stagecoaches. 1 with Barton and Mario and then one with Jake Smile alone. I send out QUATERMAN to stop the second one and Coachwhipped Jake, thus ending his robbing spree. The next few turns were a cat and mouse game, untill I at last took over the town square with the help of 2 QUATERMANs, Irving and Dr. Arden Gillman (always a helpful gentleman when some rascals needs to be shown the door). In the end I forced Marion into a shootout and with 0 bullets he was forced to cheat and thus end his own reign of terror.

My second game was against another Sloane Deck, this time starting Jonah Essex. The high points of that game was actually getting 3 QUATERMANs on the table and battling a Jonah Essex which had become 6 stud (he was hit with both Pinned down and Sun in Yer Eyes though) - and after that Jonah returning with Corporeal Twist and a Shotgun (Thanks Science for Telepathy Helmet). In the end though he didnt draw his shotguns fast enough to stop me and when he did - I won lowball and was able to force him into a shootout.

My third game was against a 3X16 3, 7 and 8 (?) Law Dogs Deck that took 2nd place. Basically I knew he could outshoot me if I took the fair fight - so I didnt. He hit me first round with a Bounty Hunter, which I pistol whipped, and I practised only shooting with him when I could reduce him to 0 stud and 1-2 draw - if I could help it. I had some luck in the start with this and aced Tommy pretty fast and decided that I needed to press the advantage before he could enforce his dwindling posse. This resulted in getting Harold out sitting in the main street with a HWG, helmet and forcefield protecting my deeds while QUATERMANs were running around trying to pin down the elusive deputies. In the end I drew control points faster than he drew warm bodies and I was able to pistol whip Wendy home (quite satisfying by the way) when she tried to do something about it.

My last game was against another MCC, a horse deck! This game went to time as the store we were playing in closed up, but he conceded in the end as he was unable to choke my production of QUATERMANs or to hit my scientists early in the game and I was slowly gaining the upper hand. Very interesting deck by the way!

It was a great day and great fun! Thanks to my opponents Rasmus, Benni, Miachael and Torkil for being such good sports and being overbearing with me while I cackled QUATERMAN! QUATERMAN! QUATERMAN! for 5 hours.

15 comments
Mar 01, 2015 mplain

First of all, thanks for the detailed write-up! :)

Interesting take on a QUATERMAN deck. When I was playing a similar deck, my biggest problem was the lack of influence. Not starting influence, but rather influence in the deck. If they managed to take down Irving, I just couldn't recover after that, they only needed a couple deeds to win, as QUATERMAN couldn't contest them. I was playing 4x Steven Wiles and a couple more other dudes. You seem to have even less manpower, so I'd think that you must have felt this problem even more significant, no? And a couple more questions:

1) How did you manage your starting economy in the early game? With so little money to start, I'd imagine that you had to rely on the outfit ability and buy deeds by booting Irving or Harold, which would leave them exposed. How did you protect them?

2) With only 4x guns in the deck, and Harold being unabile to fetch them from discard, did you ever yourself waiting for several turns to draw a gun before you could actually go into town and wreak some havoc?

3) After building your first QUATERMAN and equipping it with a Holy Wheel Gun, you had a 3-stud, which is pretty decent but it no way guarantees that you win a shootout. In cases of sporadic ties in hand ranks (or after using Force Field), who would go down as a casualty? If it was your main QUATERMAN equipped with a gun, this would be a great hit on tempo. Did you have to rely on having a second QUATERMAN acting as a meat shield?

4) Out of those four games, how many times did you draw a Straight Flush?

5) Did you find Dr. Arden Gillman useful? You have very few spades, but you also have lots of 3's, so I'd imagine you could only aim him at shotgun-fodder dudes.

6) Did Hunter Protections help you win any games?

Thanks, and congratz on the win! :)

Mar 01, 2015 Doowa

Hi! Being the second Sloane guy to face the quartermen, I can say that it didn't feel like he needed more dudes, since, there would relatively fast be 2+ quartermen on the table. And being non-unique, there's 4 you need to ace. The deck was surprisingly good at shooting, making multiple four of a kind against me.

Tbh, I never felt this deck should easily beat me (silly me), but not being able to find an early kidnapping with fx Steven Wiles and/or Pinned Down or a Shotgun until late game it became a long game. When I did get the shotgun on Jonah, MCC won lowball and the Telepathy Helmet ended that sweet moment

Mar 01, 2015 db0

Brilliant! Thanks for the report and I hope it will give some hope to the struggling Mad Scientists out there :)

Mar 01, 2015 aermet69

Well done. I've played some games against the earlier version, and Quaterman is terribly annoying to contest with. If you are not careful the opportunity cost on many of your Action cards rises through the roof. I had some games getting stuck with a lot of usually useful shooting cards, that I couldn't even sacrifice someone to get rid of due to Quatermans inherit ability. Very strong card, very nice deck!

Mar 01, 2015 LordManHammer

Thx all for the nice comments!

First of all, mplain, yes I absolutely felt the lack of influence. 6 was the most I had at any time. So I was forced to concentrate to remove their influence fast or stop them from making control points (i.e. attack them vigorously and control the town and threaten any control points they put down). This surprised many opponents that I already day 2 waddled out with a QUATERMAN and began outshooting their posse. Remember, I dont have as much to lose as they have as I can just get the next QUATERMAN back tooled up. Luckily I didn't meet any deedslide decks as that would have spelled my doom, unless I was able to draw into kidnapping or ambush the first 2 rounds.

  1. I think I won the first Lowball in all 4 games, effectively giving me 5 GR to start off with. My signature first move was to make a HWG with Harold as the first action if I had one on hand (no matter if I had a QUATERMAN on hand or not) - thus giving my opponents a 3 stud concern if they thought about first turn kidnapping. That gives me 1 GR for a QUATERMAN, if I have one on hand, and third action is then to put the HWG on the QUATERMAN. That leaves 2 GR for a deed played together with Irving. If I couldnt do that, I normally played a QUATERMAN and a deed and in one instance I played a QUATERMAN and an out of town deed (against Sloane Super Mario). Only in the 4th Game I ended up without access to HWG or QUATERMAN thus forcing me to play an out of town deed and risking Irving if my opponent had a kidnapping, but that was the 'biggest' first turn risk I took.

  2. You are absolutely right - the access to HWG is 1 of the bottlenecks of this deck. It is mitigated some by being able to play more QUATERMANs (1 Q+HWG = 3Q). Thus I actually was able to put on pressure without HWG, sometimes just with a QUATERMAN and a Forcefield :D The reason I couldnt put the pressure on quickly against the last MCC deck was the lack of HWG untill day 4. Luckily he didn't put any control points on the board - so he couldnt win, only try to stem the tide of QUATERMANs. Oh, and btw. One Good Turn is excellent for trying to draw your HWGs.

  3. Yes, I often relied on a 'Meatshield' QUATERMAN and with Harolds ability such are quite easy to get into play. But it was some of the most interesting and challenging decisions to make, when to sacrifice a QUATERMAN by using forcefield and when not to. Tying into your next question I actually shot better than most of my opponents due to the many shootout actions I had ready (Sun in Yer Eyes, Pinned Down, Coachwhip!) or was able to force them to cheat.

  4. Once! In hindsight I actually think that the biggest advantage of building a structure like this (Straight Flush with 2X16 (almost :D)) is the relative large number of actions it gives. I always felt I had more shootout actions than my opponents (which is silly as they just discarded their useless ones of course). But the few shootouts I had with 5+ stud I felt that if I had build a bellcurve Straight Flush (7 numbers) it might have been viable.

  5. Hmm... Well, he fits into the structure and he was played 2 games. I used his ability once (against Super Mario) to take over town square (against Fred Aimes maybe). It wasnt for his ability I played him though, but for his influence. I guess that if I played with Qs as a value I would be more excited about him. He pulled his own weight - but if there had been an alternative 6 with better influence I wouldn't blink twice before he left my deck.

  6. Yes! My opponents Hunter Protections gave QUATERMAN (model 008) a nice control point after he accidentally had acquired a new hat from Yan Li's and Fred Aimes decided to skeedaddle when Mr. Q came into the business. Writing this I realise that I cant do that! The card boots QUATERMAN as a cost. Well, I dont think it would have made any difference as it was against Sloane Hexslingin' and I had 2 deeds on hand in the last day. Sorry @Doowa! Then my answer is no, I would play without it. The hardest part of playing this deck is to not get out of place with your scientists so they can always be protected by QUATERMAN and be able to straddle peacefully out into town for the winning move. They have too much inventing and looking into discard piles to do - leaving no room for being control point dudes. That said untill we get another 7 I'll probably keep it.

Oh, by the way my favourite victim in several games (Law Dogs and Sloane Hexslingin') was, of course, Steven Wiles - just after he was pinned down. That will teach ya never to send out Steven - to do a QUATERMANs job.

Another thing. This is one of the most enjoyable decks I have been playing. I had fun all the way through the tournament and loved to surprise my opponents with all the decks surprises.

Thx for the questions!

Mar 01, 2015 mplain

Thanks for the insight!

So it seems that you were lucky enough to start with QUATERMAN and/or Holy Wheel Gun in three out of four games, and in the last one your opponent also had a bad start, thus giving you enough time to setup, correct? Then I have a couple more questions:

1) How many times over the course of the tournament did your opponents play Kidnappin' or Bounty Hunter to get to your human dudes? How did it go, did the robots manage to protect them successfully?

2) If Straight Flushes are still rare but you get the benefit of winning lowball and playing many shootout actions, do you think it would be worth it to maybe get some Unprepared or It's Not What You Know in place of One Good Tu? Or did you find the extra ghost rock to be relevant enough? I have my doubts about this card, would like to hear your opinion.

Mar 01, 2015 aermet69

I can't precisely speak for Anders, but I don't think the primary mission of One Good Turn… is to gain Ghost Rock. It's a possibility to get you out of a tight GR spot, but the main use is to cycle it back into the deck and digging for the more important parts (HWG fx.), basically thinning your deck with it.

Mar 01, 2015 mplain

@aermet69 there are 51 cards in this deck (including Jokers), so 4x QUATERMAN + 4x Holy Wheel Gun make up 15.7% of all cards in the deck (8/51). If we reduce the size of the deck by 4 cards, this number will change to 17% (8/47). Do you think thinning your deck by 1.3% is worth it? Me, I'd rather play Unprepared or Bottom Dealin' instead.

Mar 01, 2015 DrunkenDino

Totally not fair he beat my Super Mario Deck(; Just kidding! Quaterman is strong and gets stronger if u yell Quatermann 5 hours straight!! Good Game Anders and good tournament(;

Mar 01, 2015 LordManHammer

As I recall, I had 1 game with HWG and QUATERMAN in hand and 1 game with HWG in hand, then I had 1 game with QUATERMAN in the discard pile and 1 game with no QUATERMAN (or HWG) in hand or discard pile, but an out of town deed. Lucky enough with the HWG in hand 2 games but I think otherwise the distribution was pretty even. My luckiest moment was topdecking a full house when Barton managed to get to Irving alone - I had put Irving down as a casualty that round, fate would have it otherwise.

I dont think my last opponent had an unlucky starting hand - as he had a horse deck he needed to build a lot while keeping my QUATERMANs down and he had elected to have a lot of out of town deeds in the deck for economy (with no CPs). He played 3 of these deeds the first 2 rounds and played 2 horses and a Quickdraw Handgun.

  1. 1 first turn Bounty Hunter against Kyle, which I had 'read' so I didnt play QUATERMAN but kept Kyle unbooted to Pistol Whip the Bounty Hunter. 2 Kidnappin's from Sloane Hexslingin' one refuted by QUATERMAN and one... by Coachwhip I think. However, I cant vouch for my opponents not having more but electing not to use these as I was fully protected by QUATERMANs. I seem to recall my opponents heading for their hideouts during mid and late game ;P And I kept my opponents hands clogged up with useless shootout actions, hindering their ability to draw a fresh hand of cards and thus probably facing fewer jobs.

  2. I think that would be another deck but worth a try. I had been thinking a lot about It's Not What You Know... or Qs as a value (good deeds as well) and it is certainly viable to build the deck that way. Hell, if One Good Turn… was a 4 I would consider not using it as it isnt a part of my draw structure. Then again I must agree with @aermet69One Good Turn is mostly for thinning the deck. Doing statistics on these is a tricky thing but if I have not drawn a QUATERMAN in my hand or in the discard pile then there is 4/41 cards left in the deck or 9,8% chance to draw a QUATERMAN, as well as a chance to draw another One Good Turn (lets say there is 2 left in the deck because I am lazy) so thats 2/41 or 4,9% which then gives another chance of getting a QUATERMAN now 4/40 or 10%. Then there is also a chance of drawing a HWG... OK I did the whole math. Getting a QUATERMAN or HWG with a OGT if there is none in discard pile is 8/41+(3/41*8/40) or roughly 21%. With 1 HWG in the discard pile it is 18% and with 2 HWG in discard pile it is roughly 16%. If there is a OGT in the discard pile you can bump each of those numbers down by 0,5%. So... I like the card especially in gadget decks. It was also insurance if I lost the Lowball that I hopefully could regain from a bad economical standpoint but I was never closed down economically (some tried, all failed). Again if 6 isn't part of your structure I can see why you wouldnt bring it, but as part of the structure it 'very' much thins your deck.

So just another comment on this deck - it is absolutely beatable. But what it does is to be an antithesis on a lot of conventional shooter decks as they are faced with opponents immune to their shootout actions while packing a bunch itself, it also draws reasonably well, it has the economy to buy itself out of losing with Forcefield and to come again with Harolds ability to pull central cards out of the discard pile. As @Doowasaid after the tournament - he could see how to beat the deck no problems, but I played it well (I practised before showing up) and was lucky at the right times. I dont think you go through 4 games unbeaten without luck.

Good for me that QUATERMAN makes his own luck ;)

Mar 08, 2015 spyke7977

Just played a couple games with this deck and was sorely disappointed. Maybe I was just playing it wrong but none of my opening hands were as lucky as ```@LordManHammer`. 4 games and had to fish out Quaterman every time with Harold, only got Quaterman with HWG twice in those games. Again, maybe I just haven't learned the patience that is required for Quaterman to get big but when you're facing a Sloane that's stacking ctrl and threatening kidnappin and 4R that's Blood Cursing my precious influence away, it gets a little hard to just sit around and do nothing. In the play tests I made a few changes that helped make the deck seem a bit more viable: Dropped the Kidnappin' for Hired Help (never came into play but felt like they would have helped more, given I was flush with cash in a few games); dropped the Ambush for Prof. True (didn't come into play but extra influence was nice in theory); dropped Hunter's Protection for another Blake's Ranch (yay out-of-town deeds), and lost 1st Baptist Church and a Yan Li's Tailoring for everyone's favorite drifter Steven Wiles.

This updated version felt a bit more comfortable allowing for Steven to buy some time and threaten. The only question that remains is, since Quaterman can't be affected by nearly all shootout actions (Think he's immune from all effects, save Unprepared which affects his attached goods) why bother with Telepathy Helmets? Remember, Telepathy Helmet doesn't protect your attached goods from Unprepared, only Hiding in the Shadows has that distinction.

Maybe drop the 3s a a main value? Leave the Quaterman, a few Sun in Yer Eyes and build around 4s? Quaterman with influence thanks to Ballot Counter might be useful? Didn't get to try this variant out.

TLDR: I tried this deck and failed, maybe I don't know how to harness the power of Quaterman just yet. Switched a few cards around and it felt better. Ultimately, since Telepathy Helmet doesn't do anything for Quaterman, maybe drop some 3s and add 4s?

Mar 08, 2015 LordManHammer

Sorry to hear that!

I think that I built this deck differently than many others would have built it and I think it is quite hard to pilot as well. It took me about 15-20 games and continuously modifications before I took it to the tournament.

I also think that there is a lot of different possibilities to do decks with QUATERMAN. I published this deck not because I think it is perfect but to hopefully make people try it out and then changing it into a deck that fits your style and play. I am still developing the deck (am trying to add Dr. Ashbel as more influence and the odd chance to discard a QUATERMAN instead of acing him) and I am sure it can become better. If you find something that works for you please post it! I would really like to see that as well.

Your post did remind me that there is something that I haven't really touched upon in the above comments - namely the piloting. So Ill have a monologue about this deck for a bit. :D

There is a few things that I would like to adress. First of all your starting hand for this deck - I think it is impotant to have some numbers down to show what the possibility is to draw stuff - namely HWG and QUATERMAN as these cards are what creates the decks 'momentum' or what actually creates the possibility of creating pressure or defending against your opponents pressure as early as possible.

The probability for starting a HWG and a QUATERMAN in your playhand at the same time is 12.9%.

The probability for starting with a QUATERMAN in your starting hand is 35.9%. That is the same for starting with a HWG.

The probability for starting with either/or is 60.7%.

The probability for having a QUATERMAN in your start hand or in the 1st lowball draw is 61.1%.

The probability for having a QUATERMAN in your hand OR lowball OR a HWG in your hand is 75.1%.

That means that 3/4 you will have something to start the pressure with but also that 1/4 of your games will be under pressure where you will have to turn it around. I would love to decrease those odds by having Gina or Travis join but I am afraid that I cant get the GR for them to join.

Why are these numbers important? Because this deck is about creating pressure as early as possible - and when that is denied then it is about turning the game around so you are able to do so. To understnd why I think this is working well with this deck and why not play a Sloane 3x16 we have to look at what it does:

  1. Lots of replenishable cheap fodder. QUATERMAN is cheap and he comes from the discard pile - he has no fear and neither should you when sending him out on his death defying missions. The loss of 1 QUATERMAN is nothing compared to the loss of an opponents dude. This gives you the upper hand in any 1-1 exchange. By 1-1 exchange is not necessarily meant you ace 1 he aces 1 - it is also a great advantage when you are calculating if it is worth to take the shootout 1 stud vs. 1 stud (his and your decks shootout ability considered).

  2. You are clogging your opponents hands with useless shootout actions - as long as you deny him access to shootouts against other dudes than QUATERMAN. This definetely decreases the number of actions you will meet against your scientists (kidnappin' and such) as well as denies him the possibility of following his gameplan - it takes away his momentum.

  3. It focuses on greatly reducing your opponents bullets while keeping your own (SIYE, Pinned Down and HWG) thus creating shootout scenarios where you will have or seem to have the upper hand. In the shootout it forces your opponent to either have a lesser hand than yours (especially if you have a number of QUATERMANs or a QUATERMAN with a HWG) or to cheat - which you regularly are able to punish. That combined with the seemingly deathwish of QUATERMAN is quite terrifying for your opponent.

  4. Against better shootout structures you will be able to force them into a 1 - 1 trade with Forcefield where you are able to recover quicker than they are.

  5. Telepathy Helmet is quite necessary imho. The reason for it is: Harold needs 1. Shotgun against QUATERMAN. Soulblast against QUATERMAN. And... Knowledge. If you read this article: www.gomorragazette.com it describes that most players actually defeat themselves due to misplays and that knowledge of your opponents deck reduces the number of misplays dramatically - well the Telepathy Helmet provides the ultimate knowledge of your opponents abilities! Just watch his lowball for his shootout structure.

So, this should give a bit of the strengths of the deck. Ill see if I can describe how I pilot it.

The first turn I try to get a QUATERMAN out and a deed down. If I sense that my opponent is sitting with kidnapping a bounty hunter etc. I try to stack the odd by increasing my bullets and bodies (HWG on Harold - QUATERMAN down). If not I try to get a deed played with Irving if I can protect it with a QUATERMAN or Harold with a HWG - if not I will try to cycle my hand as much as possible so I can play both deed and QUATERMAN next turn.

Turn 2 I will try to get my 2nd QUATERMAN in play and take the town square either with 2 (or 3) QUATERMANs or a QUATERMAN and a HWG. Sometimes it is necessary to initiate this with Kyle or Irving if I need to pistolwhip someone but otherwise Ill just send the robot army.

Turn 3 will continue to consolidate and build QUATERMANs and begin outfitting them with Telepathy Helmets and Forcefields and put down more deeds. If I can I will try to save a few shootout actions to gain the upper hand in the inevitable Grand Shootout that will occur when my opponent is forced out or I get the kidnapping I need. A coachwhip is especially necessary but I have also used it to continuously boot their main huckster or big stud during lowball instead if their shootout structure is intimidating.

Of course, there will be games where this doesnt work. The 4th game of the tournament I didnt get any stud help before turn 2 or 3 and had to cover at home and try to play deeds out of town etc. to avoid being gunned down. But the moment I had 2 QUATERMANs down this changed - and a few turns later I found my first HWG and then things went from putting out fires and to determining the play more and more.

About the structure of this deck - I tried not to go outside the 5 main values, however the 2 forcefields were so necessary that I did. That said I think it is entirely possible to do the structuring differently - especially if you go 4 or five values. It is all about finding a balance between winning lowball and shootin' straight - this worked in my meta at this tournament it may vary a lot where you are.

Mar 09, 2015 spyke7977

Your response just makes me want to watch a game with you piloting this deck. Feel like I'd learn a few things in the way of the Quaterman.

Mar 09, 2015 Krampus

Hey @LordManHammer im a little confused on a couple of things, perhaps you could clear them up for me. 1. You say that you use hunter protections on quaterman. Is this move not illegal since it boots a dude? 2. You run quite a few jobs in your deck but you cant lead the job with quaterman. In my experience with this deck i was uncomfortable sending any mad scientist other than kyle due to there being so little influence in the deck. Who did you tend to lead with? And are the jobs just there as a "for when i cant win without it" Play?

Mar 10, 2015 LordManHammer

Hi @Krampus!

  1. You are absolutely right, I realised that in the discussion above - I still think I would run it untill there is a better 7.

  2. Irving - to get the extra GR, but it is of course a risk which I try to minimize by having at least 1 QUATERMAN and normally 2 QUATERMANs participating. However I have been able to catch some of their influence dudes at an out of town deed or the like with a 'surprise' kidnappin'.